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Bleeding for Laminitis


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#1 George Geist

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:33 PM

When I was first beginning to learn the trade, there were a good number of old timers still around most of whom are no longer with us. One of the things I can remember a few of them talking about was bleeding a hot founder. This consisted of drilling one or more holes in the toe area of the horses hoof wall to relieve pressure of trapped blood very much like what we do to a human fingernail after smashing it and giving ourselves a hemotoma.

 

I've mentioned this on other forums. It's usually been met with scoffing and ridicule, especially among the veterinary community. Nonetheless I can remember the old folks swearing it works.

 

Now we have an interesting thing on Fran's site saying that German researchers are having some great success using leeches:

http://hoofcare.blog...-idea-work.html

 

Isn't this pretty much the same idea? Seems to me maybe just bleeding them might make the leeches unnecessary?

 

What you all think?

George

 


#2 dana fenn

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:56 AM

i don't have time to read Fran's link tonight, George . . . sorry!~

 

but i seem to remember a thread "somewhere" that jack's brother posted on a needle inserted into the heel area?? i could be wrong or maybe not remembering it correctly . . . . . but after 2 pain founders and a spring founder and than the 4th one in Minnesota, the 3rd week of jan, at -40 below?

 

seriously?? this happens?? well, Yes, it does when someone tries to feed your 800lb mare like you would feed a Clyde and if i'd of had Jack's brother around to ask, I'd Of Been There In A Heartbeat . . . .


Live your life in such a way, that when your feet hit the floor in the morning,

Satan shudders and says "Oh, NO, she's Awake!"


#3 Linda Muggleworth

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 10:46 AM

yes.

can you imagine if this was a simple cure?



#4 Forgewizard

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:29 PM

This would likely only work for the very small window of opportunity when the blood vessels have opened back up after being closed and there is damage on the return side of the vessels so the blood has no where to go. Once the cappillaries have "died" the blood stops pooling.

 

Using the finger nail analogy, once the underlying tissue has begun healing there is no more bleeding under the nail. So it WOULD offer releif from the pressure encountered when loading the limb. But it also would offer an opening for more infection.

 

Taking the problem a step further: since the capillaries have already been damaged, the laminae in that area will no longer receive nourishment and the hoof wall will no longer get the support it needs - so drilling a hole in the hoof wall is NOT going to increase any MORE damage. If the owner is diligent for the duration of time needed to grow replacement hoof wall then the likelihood of infecion can be severely reduced, if not eliminated.

 

The danger I suppose would be knowing EXACTLY where to drill such a  drain hole. Since capillary die off isn't necessarily easily mapped, it could happen that the hole being drilled may go through a viable part of the hoof.

 

Once the laminitis has progressed the pooled blood will coagulate and any drilling will not result in release of any pressure. The coagulated blood however can produce an internal "corn" of sorts - which will bother the horse during loading of the limb.

 

I can see where it might work AND where it might cause more problems!



#5 chris

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 02:06 PM

christ almighty what bollox



#6 George Geist

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:38 PM

christ almighty what bollox

Could you be a little more specific?

Is it what I said, or what Kim said, or the leech research release from Fran?

 



#7 chris

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:43 AM

whos Kim ?



#8 Forgewizard

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:47 AM

Kim is "Forgewizard" -  farrier since 1996 in Florida. Who is Chris?



#9 chris

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 08:05 AM

 is that you in the photo Kim ?



#10 Jack Mac

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:57 PM

No need to drill holes in hoofs & some old time farriers would bleed them at the corn of hoof. I have had very good results with bleeding 10 -15 litre of blood out of a foundering horse via the jugular during a laminits episode. If bleed at the early on set. damage resulting from an attack is defiantly lessoned.What seems to be mist in understanding laminitis. is its not only the hooves that are damaged. Organs & certain glands are also damaged during the attack.

Most vets that do practice bleeding as a treatment for early on set. Rarely will admit to the practice even though the results speak for them self. The politics of the  politicly correct  veterinary world, can see your lively hood disappear over night. If your seen not to be marching  to the politicly correct veterinary broads drum.               


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#11 David Kelly

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:23 PM

No need to drill holes in hoofs & some old time farriers would bleed them at the corn of hoof. I have had very good results with bleeding 10 -15 litre of blood out of a foundering horse via the jugular during a laminits episode. If bleed at the early on set. damage resulting from an attack is defiantly lessoned.What seems to be mist in understanding laminitis. is its not only the hooves that are damaged. Organs & certain glands are also damaged during the attack.

Most vets that do practice bleeding as a treatment for early on set. Rarely will admit to the practice even though the results speak for them self. The politics of the  politicly correct  veterinary world, can see your lively hood disappear over night. If your seen not to be marching  to the politicly correct veterinary broads drum.               

 

They do that out here on the Kings stud farm, I have not seen it done but the manager, an Irish vet was telling me about it. I think he said he bleeds them from an artery in the leg though if i remember correctly.



#12 George Geist

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:22 PM

I kinda wish the esteemed Mr Stovall was here to discuss this one as I remember him saying on another forum that he once saw Burney Chapman drill into a hot founder. He said he saw blood squirt across the room. After it slowed to a trickle the horse walked off nearly sound.

Obviously it provided instant relief in that case.


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